tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12543231.post6401547872639311765..comments2023-06-15T09:41:19.355-05:00Comments on NT/History Blog: Jesus + Father, Pre-BaptismBill Heromanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05283809456471966882noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12543231.post-21090402755506995712009-08-25T14:43:07.384-05:002009-08-25T14:43:07.384-05:00Thanks for sharing that, Peter. I'd heard of ...Thanks for sharing that, Peter. I'd heard of charistmatic Catholics in the US but not Episcopalians. But remember, I'm from the 'deep south'. Our downtown Baton Rouge congregation was very high liturgical and not what many would call 'spirit filled'.<br /><br />On the gifts in general, I don't believe certain outward manifestations always or necessarily follow a spirit attuned life. But Jesus' moral life was a manifestation of how much he walked with and cared for his Father.<br /><br />The Romans had laws about morality. Nazareth is a glimpse into the Godhead before Eternity. Nazareth is important because "our Fellowship is with the Father and the Son".Bill Heromanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05283809456471966882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12543231.post-91069014719930288122009-08-25T12:12:35.734-05:002009-08-25T12:12:35.734-05:00I would agree that Jesus' pre-baptism life in ...I would agree that Jesus' pre-baptism life in Nazareth can, to the extent we can reconstruct it, be a good foundation for living a moral Christian life. I might qualify that by saying that it probably included Old Testament observances which are not binding on New Testament believers - for example, Jesus probably abstained from pork himself but later declared all foods clean. But this is only the foundation for a Christian life which should go far beyond upright living.<br /><br />There are a lot of us charismatic Anglicans in England, you know. I think there are even some in the USA. There certainly used to be, but Dennis Bennett in the 1960s was forced out of the Episcopal Church and probably others have followed him. I don't suppose any who remain are finding things easy under Katharine Jefferts Schori. But there are some charismatics in the new Anglican Church of North America.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12543231.post-91076906484469492032009-08-24T05:29:00.378-05:002009-08-24T05:29:00.378-05:00Someday you're going to have to tell me how a ...Someday you're going to have to tell me how a good Anglican became such a 'pentecostal', Peter. ;-)<br /><br />Seriously, I very much like what you're saying. I'm a non-cessationist, theoretically, but I don't see everyone in the NT performing miracles. Paul didn't heal anybody for years and years (that we know of, anyway). So this lapsed Episcopalian has to pretty much suspend judgment on fantastic powers, in my humble experience, but I absolutely agree the NT church went beyond what Jesus knew pre-baptism.<br /><br />He said, "Greater works have you to do" but he also said, "No student is greater than his master." So we should indeed model our further development on his further development, in his ministry and in his body, but I'm saying we may need to re-model our foundation on his foundation. <br /><br />I don't think his connection was all that vague, either. I just think He grew into it over time. As must we. After all, He IS the firstborn of a brand new species...Bill Heromanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05283809456471966882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12543231.post-52707789762020575052009-08-24T04:22:11.648-05:002009-08-24T04:22:11.648-05:00Bill, I'm not quite sure what I mean. Yes, Jes...Bill, I'm not quite sure what I mean. Yes, Jesus in Nazareth surely had a spiritual connection with the Father which was mediated by the Holy Spirit. But there was some new sense in which the Holy Spirit came upon him at his baptism, which was followed by his ministry and miracles.<br /><br />I would see this as somehow transitional between the way in which the Spirit came on Old Testament characters enabling them to do mighty deeds and the way in which the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost and continues to come upon Christian believers enabling us to prophesy and exercise other gifts (Acts 2:16-21).<br /><br />Now I don't want to make a doctrine here of the need for baptism in the Holy Spirit demonstrated by gifts. But I do see too many Christian believers trying to live like Jesus in Nazareth, good lives according to God's law and with some rather vague spiritual connection with God. But that is not the model I see for the New Testament church, which moved in the same kind of power of the Spirit as Jesus did after his baptism.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12543231.post-69086571089507298352009-08-24T04:00:28.312-05:002009-08-24T04:00:28.312-05:00Depending on what you mean by 'spirit filled&#...Depending on what you mean by 'spirit filled', Peter, I might agree or disagree. (Not sure what you mean.)<br /><br />I believe the Father indwelled Jesus in Nazareth, partly b/c I don't think he could have lived such a life 'alone'. The Spirit of God was within Him all his life, growing and developing.<br /><br />The Spirit of God also came down UPON him at the Jordan. This may have been the outward 'baptism' of the spirit, by which he received his 'powers', but I'm not dogmatic about that part - I just don't think the Jordan was the moment his Father indwelled him.<br /><br />Do you really mean to say you think he lived that life without a spiritual connection to the Father?Bill Heromanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05283809456471966882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12543231.post-13224280856390659762009-08-24T03:36:22.941-05:002009-08-24T03:36:22.941-05:00I might suggest that as baptised and Spirit-filled...I might suggest that as baptised and Spirit-filled Christians the life of Jesus that we should seek to copy is not his hidden life in Nazareth but his Spirit-filled life after his baptism. His pre-baptism life may have been an ideal fulfilment of the old covenant (compare Matthew 5:17, but also v.20), but it is probably not by chance that the life presented in the gospels, written down as an example for us new covenant believers, is his post-baptism Spirit-filled life.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.com